Would you move to the US today?
by neo
Neo is popular with the ladies (well, at least for a few minutes in every party before reality Mrs. Neo intervenes), but there is a notable exception. One of Mrs. Neo’s friends, “Sneha”, hates Neo almost as much as she hated her boyfriend at the time.
The hatred erupted after an especially long whining session discussion revolving around Sneha’s relationship. Neo finally broke his silence despite Mrs. Neo’s “please-don’t-say-anything” look and suggested that Sneha approach her relationship using that most basic of economic principles – sunken costs.
Neo suggested that Sneha should ignore her past efforts to improve their relationship, such as feigning vegetarianism and a love for Carnatic classical music. She should also ignore the fact that in return for her culinary and auditory sacrifices, said hapless boyfriend had barely scratched the surface of Sneha’s desires (e.g. a normal romantic dinner without aggressively reiterating (in English of course) Tamil’s supremacy as the world’s oldest, finest and most mellifluous language).
Instead, Neo suggested that the only thing that Sneha should consider is the expected return on her future investments in the relationship. And that with all due respect to a certain Mr. Obama, hope was not a strategy.
At that point, Sneha decided to channel her inner Heisenberg, and behave as if her issues would not exist if Neo hadn’t point them out – ergo, hatred for Neo. Sneha wanted to believe that the relationship would reward Sneha for all the hard work she had put into it.
Sneha had fallen prey to the gambler’s fallacy – the hope that sustaining large losses in the recent past somehow, all by itself, increases the probability of profits in the immediate future.
So – the excellent 10 years, or the bad 2 years (or both) you’ve had in the US thus far should not be material in deciding whether you should stay on in the US. The more important question is – given all that you know about the US and the other countries that compete for your residency, would you choose the US again today ?
Furthermore, if you did decide to move to India, hated it and decided to move back – the only real cost to consider would be the opportunity cost of not living in the US for the period you were in India. (Young, attractive women like Sneha run huge opportunity costs by sticking with loser boyfriends).
Of course, not all decisions in life need to be approached with sound economic theory. Sneha could have (but notably didn’t) shut Neo up by invoking that terrible clause that has kept great women in terrible relationships since the time of (and including) Sita: “I don’t care what he does, I still love him, and I’m staying”.
Instead Sneha realized that her relationship was very much an investment that she wanted good (emotional) returns on. And, like Bohr’s horseshoe, economic theory works even if you don’t believe in it.
Soon after, Sneha dumped her boyfriend. Mrs. Neo reports that any of the three men who are now courting (a much fitter-looking) Sneha would be better than the loser she was with earlier.
(Neo still remains hated.)
Mr Neo:
Mrs Neo has no doubt noticed that the readership here is also overwhelmingly of the female variety. But this is a digression.
It is doubly interesting to read this post for I spent the afternoon listening to a talk on behavioural economics. Of course the whole point of this field is to question the existence of Homo Economicus, the kind to which your analysis should appeal.
The most thought-provoking (amusing) bits to me were that trust is not an intellectual construct but a hormonal one. (so I am guessing you must make women experience an oxytocin surge which is why so many flock to you); that it is unclear how deferred gratification can be applied to macroeconomics (although people’s decisions to move countries are rarely of macroeconomic significance but they would in general do better to understand the concept of deferred gratification and a focus on NPV) and last but not the least, behavioural economics may be distracting from rational assessments of structural issues (so is it possible that Sneha is a pain in the derriere and may be the boyfriend is trying to lose her but cannot find a nice way to say it; obviously from the outside, it is hard to say if it-is-not-you-it-is-me works or not).
(I have tried hard to compress a long train of thoughts into points; if this is totally unintelligible, may be I shall write a post on the behavioural economics of dating and inter-country relocations in which I have special expertise).
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Actually Mrs. N hadn’t quite noticed it – but yes, thanks for highlighting the gender demographics of my blog. It will be far easier for me now to get time off for blogging. :-)
Also – its fascinating that you actually thought of the POV of the boyfriend. The fact that he still remains a Tamil classicist and an extraordinarily difficult guy to hang out with seems to be evidence against the he-was-trying-to-lose-her hypothesis.
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oxytocin you say, yea? uuumm… I must ask my neighbor to stop jogging his new girlfriend to death.. we were banking on endorphins to get him to second and third bases… we thought the shared experience of a runners high and exhaustion would sweep him past her inexplicable skittish disposition when faced with the natural and carefully laid out.. progression of.. a great evening bonding doing fun stuff and a sleepover to bumping uglies.
Ah! women.. just when you thought you had em all figured out..they switch hormones on you.
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After my six-month exchange program in the US, I had decided I wasn’t terribly kee on living in the US again except for the briefest of stints and now, due to various circumstances, it might seem like I might have to move across the pond at some point in the near future :( So, no, I wouldn’t want to move to the US today.
Ok, I know I just used your post to type out a completely unrelated personal rant. But seriously, I don’t know why it is so fashionable lately to buy into romantic notions when it comes to all big life decisions – relationships, moving countries, buying a house, shopping ridiculously, etc. Practicality spells b-o-r-i-n-g to most young people and thinking with your head, rather than with your heart, is seen as a compromise. I don’t see anything wrong with being rational and a bit calculating when it comes to weighing the options, and then following the gut feel.
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It is nothing short of intellectual laziness. It’s far easier to intuitively say “I think its a great time to buy a house” – understanding macroeconomics, and allowing the uncertainty of the future to make an impact on your mind is far too much work.
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Neo dude.. this is by far the best post you’ve written.. Shefaly’s excellent followup.. I was laughing really really hard.. I should not be reading your blog at work..
On the topic “long whining session discussion” about relationships.. be thankful penis lengths, widths, vaginal farts and condoms lost in vagina’s were not discussed.. I once sat through a bitch and whine session.. boy did I learn a thing or two.
So once again.. pretty freaking hilarious .. keep em coming.
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Wow yes. To Sneha’s credit (and our good fortune), the (ex) boyfriend was somewhat of a puritan. He practically insisted on not getting to first base. :-)
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Neo dude.. my experience was emasculating.. yet strangely educational… the physiological scars.. will probably never heal.
An honest no holds barred “discussion” on relationships is a walk through a moonscape littered with accusations – brutal and eviscerating, and an altogether unnecessary dissection of the male anatomy… it redefines “a women scorned”.
After all that.. you’d think, you should be allowed to wonder aloud what she saw in him in the first place… but that would be inviting another forced march through her minefield of courtship shenanigans, half truths and some really out there creative romanticization you’ll gag on.
Well, at least I know now.. when a women unloads.. let her unload.. hand her a box of tissues and head for the hills.. if not, resist the urge to say something.. anything… nothing.. nada.. zip. Do not ever to respond to the “Why are men such jerks” accompanied by insinuating glances between your wife (GF) and the ranting “friend”.. it’s not you… apparently, every biped with a penis is born a jerk… the fact that the object of her (ex)desire is right now out there with his buds.. guzzling beer and generally living it up only goes to prove her point.. and the argument that the Y chromosome is an accident of nature and that all men are born with half a brain… There is no fighting mother nature.
Well, on the macro economic implications of our micro monetary investments and especially their influence on our future macro economic and emotional investments.. I’d still make the move.. consider this.. Dinner last night: Orange glazed -baked to perfection- Quail on a bed of wild rice and black olives, crispy bacon (for contrast against the sweetness of the meat), grilled sweet corn and a fine bottle of California Sarah – set against the sweeping vistas of the sunny San Francisco bay on a warm spring evening.
Living in the US still has it’s advantages… you just have to find em, perhaps still worth the cost and the expense.
Unfortunately, in these times of uncertainty, it all boils down to a choice of what we value more… we can’t, it seems – have it all.
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@Easily – Dude you’re getting me all homesick! The closest I have ever come to a spiritual experience was on a road trip along Highway 1 (Big Sur). It was also my first experience in a convertible.
Ultimately it’s about conscious choices isn’t it ? Peace comes not from having it all, but from knowing exactly what you have, what you don’t, and why.
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Poor Neo :( Does Sneha realize that you are “The One” ?
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Yes, if by “The One” you mean “the-one-who-must-not-be-named”. :-)
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I meant the one , who understands her . :) You seem to have a much better idea of what is going on with her life .
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Well, I figure that Sneha’s future relationship with the guy could have either been good, or it could have been bad – so, really, she has a 50/50 chance either way.
P.S. Whatever behavior economist gave that talk, Shefaly, he must have been dozing in his graduate macro classes. There are plenty of macro models that assume, either implicitly or explicitly, that consumers must delay gratification now in return for higher utility in the next period.
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Gorigirl:
Not to put a fine point on it, the economist was Robert Shiller. Not sure many would agree he was ‘dozing in his graduate macro classes’.
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Shiller’s finance, really, which is not at all the same as macro. Obviously, I don’t know what he said in the talk, but delayed gratification is a key part of several popular macro economic models. So if he said it’s not a part of the macro field, then he’s just wrong, or was dumbing things down for the audience.
Generally, you shouldn’t trust an economist to know everything about economics just ’cause he’s considered top rate in his particular field, or has published a lot of well-received popular press books & articles. Hell, Krugman is a Nobel Prize winner, but some of the stuff he says is just bad, bad economics that an undergraduate econ major could tear apart.
(Note: this defense of macro economics should not be taken as support of the field. I think most of what’s currently happening in the field is pretty worthless, since many of the subtleties of the new models being turned out aren’t valuable, since we’ve reached a point where the data isn’t good enough/detailed enough for those subtleties to matter.)
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Gorigirl:
The talk was titled ‘How Human Psychology affects The Economy’. The discussion was broad but some questions pertinent to policy-making were asked. In that context both the points – the one about the lack of clarity and consensus on how to apply the concept of deferred gratification to macroeconomic policy effectively and the possibility that behavioural economic explanations may be diverting attention from structural defects – came up.
Whether finance and economics should be treated at all times as different disciplines is moot. The epistemological differences blur too often at least at a policy level and the ontological differences are arguably the product of disciplinary history rather than any intrinsic need for the discourse to remain separate along the two streams. Indeed behavioural economics and behavioural finance are closely linked and to separate them fallaciously would be great material for argumentation for those whose (mainly academic) careers may be tied to being in firm camps but not to anybody who seeks to create and use policy that can be used as an instrument of meaningful understanding and change. As it happens, one of the other emergent themes was the lack of multi- and trans-disciplinary approaches in policy related problem solving.
Indeed just as there is bad science, there is bad economics. It is not about what he said being cast in stone but keeping an open mind does not hurt. It helps clarify things especially as the complexity of business and trade mechanics only grows. Sometimes the most important contribution an academic makes is to question the status quo. And more than anything else, that is the exact combination we need – challenge to the status quo and an open mind about possibilities. It would help if people were trained in and able to comprehend the complexity of challenges, and frame and solve problems using multidisciplinary tool kits rather than with the metaphorical hammer of their own narrow discipline to which everything is a nail.
Thanks.
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Uh, I’m not saying that finance doesn’t fall into the realm of economics, just that an economist who has specialized in finance – particularly behavioral finance – doesn’t have the same level of expertise in macroeconomic modeling as a macroeconomist would. Just like a trade theorist, like Krugman, doesn’t know a great deal about, say, IO. Economics today covers an extremely wide area – a good field to compare it to is engineering – and even a very good economist can’t hope to have a decent handle on the majority of what’s happening in other specializations.
Anyways, the talk sounds interesting, but clearly he wasn’t talking economics – he was talking *about* economics to a lay audience. Thus, I’m not surprised that he didn’t discuss the models in macroeconomics that take into account delayed gratification.
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I have no attention span for anything over 140 characters anymore, so I can’t add anything intelligent to the conversation.
Nevertheless, I love the fact that you used sunken costs in your post to illustrate human relationships. Unfortunately, people don’t behave like people in economic models. If they did, our interest rates wouldn’t be at 1.5% *shakes fist at Bernanke*.
Also, agree with Gori that at this point, Krugman has become more straw man than real economist.
Also, make Sneha join shaadi.com.
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“People don’t behave like people in economic models”
Thank you for finally explaining how the lamest of guys seem to get the hottest of women! :-)
-Neo
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Pliss to update Mr. Neo.
-an avid reader of your posts.
:)
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[...] Would you move to the US today? [...]
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[comment removed at the commentor's request]
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Here here… well consider this:
Today was (is) a really hot day in the bay area.. for dinner.. tandoori roti (on a grill) and wife whipped up some superb dal and veggies.. washed em down with a great chilled Pinot Grigio… twin fin discounted to a buck 99… described as – fruity, dry and really quenching, and quenching it was.
I stay in the US for the food and booze.
I hear there’s a wine festival going on in Bangalore..
What you write unfortunately is true… our economy has made some progress, but.. social progress especially when compared to the west is years or decades away.
Hope the fanatics don’t shut the fledgling wine festival down for being contrary to “Indian” culture.
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^
Verry interesting comment.(I know you won’t be reading my response. Yours is a classic example of “Gori Girl” ‘s(brilliant article that,btw) stereotype. But anyway)
“I have learnt something called womens’ rights, HUMAN rights’, and know that children ought not to work and that if laws exisit, one ought to follow them instead of simply going along with tradition coz you arent encouraged to think outside the box etc.
Not to mention, the people are rude and it is a VERY male dominated society.”
(I love HTML AND sarcasm, so let’s begin, shall we.)
Point-by-point:
1)Human Rights: Yes, India is the biggest violator of human rights in the world. That is why we never have invaded any country in the last 10,000 years of our history. That is why America is responsible for the massacres of 3 million innocent people in Iraq; soldiers raped Women and sodomized children in Abu Ghraib. That is why even the epitome of freedom Thomas Jefferson had a battalion of Black slaves. That is why you stopped treating racial minorities like dirt only after 200 years of your existence. That is why you massacred almost the entire native American population in the name of “Pioneering spirit”.
2)Women’s Rights: You are so correct here. In India, the woman is “dirt”. That is why we have had a Woman head of state and more than 8 woman Chief Ministers. That is why even the great “Harvard Medical School” admitted females only in the 1940s. That is why Women in India were given voting rights at independence itself, and you waited nearly till the 1920s(150 years nearly.) That is why even today, women doctors are regarded as little more than glorified nurses in many parts of your country, and are considered by the male ones as mere sex objects
3)People are rude/Not encouraged to think out-of-the-box: That is why India has the largest number of self-employed people in the world, and is widely regarded as the world’s most enterprising nation.
With due respect for your opinion, let me tell you that the same points you have mentioned are also applicable to the US, and I can give exactly the same reasons you did for choosing NOT to live in America. This comparison is totally invalid. We are a very young nation, only 6 decades old. Compare us with the US of the 1820s-1830s(60 years after independence.) Compare the condition of women,children,and the human rights scene of the America of the 1820s with that of India in 2009. You will realize that we have achieved a hell lot more than your country in the same timeperiod. Just my 2 paise.
Otherwise, you can live in Alabama for all I care.
Thanks
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Picking and choosing – and grossly misinterpreting – American historical data to fit your thesis isn’t exactly a good way to respond to a person’s comment that grossly mischaracterizes India, Akshay.
I’m just sayin’.
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Didn’t quite get what you’re saying. Would you kindly elaborate? And can you give a better response? If yes, please do.
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On reflection, I think I got what you were trying to say. Yes, you are correct. You may call it “tit-for-tat “. Because don’t you think the comment itself was “picking and choosing” a few realities? (Ya, I don’t deny that what she said was true. As an Indian,I’m ashamed of what “V” has written, no excuses there.).The comment has only highlighted the negatives. I did exactly the same about the commenter’s country. I was really annoyed and couldn’t resist replying. I was doing exactly the commenter did, judging a society based on a few damning historical facts, or in other words “stereotyping” the US. If I were to base MY personal judgement of the US on my not-so-good personal experiences and this historical data, the US would be the most racist, intolerant and rude nation on earth. But I also had a lot of wonderful experiences and met a few great people during my short stay in America. So I all was trying to convey that all humans are alike and there are good and bad people in every society. I took offence at the way the comment insults my country just because it has the problems that any evolving society does. The post made India look like a nation of wife-beaters and child-abusers. In retaliation, I tried to create the impression ” Americans are mass-murderers” based on a few less palatable facts, but facts nonetheless, just to see how he/she reacts. This “V” is merely generalizing things on the basis of a few experiences to distort the reality (inadvertently,maybe . But clearly very immature of him/her.). I chose real facts because maybe I thought it could make me immune to the kind of cross examination guys like us are usually subjected to, wherein we are always asked for “facts” rather than subjective opinions. I apologize, for I admit I got a bit carried away. Sorry.
But I absolutely stand by what is written without the sarcasm tag,you may say what you want . I couldn’t care less.
Anyway, I reiterate I no longer find blogs like this one and yours interesting(no offence, but that’s how I am.). I enjoyed reading yours and this one, but it is blogs by actual students like myself which have caught my fancy these days. Enjoyed spamming this blog.Looking forward to spam them too. Don’t worry about me shouting here anymore :P :). Just wanted to clarify.
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[comment removed at commentor's request]
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Alright, ab mujhe bhi kuch bolne dijiye.
If you cared to read what I’d written, you would have seen that I am not denying anything you said. I merely wanted to say that while we may more be fucked up than you are(language? :|), we are not exactly a nation of wife-beaters and child abusers as you claim. Sweeping generalizations based on a few random experiences are immature, and stupid. Hence the tone.
Clearly you haven’t bothered to understand what I’ve been trying to say.
When I’d gone to America, I loved it. But I had several nasty experiences too. I saw homeless people in downtown DC, was racially abused at Dulles, and a major part of my 10-day trip was wasted trying to explain to all those dumb kids that there was more to India than it being “an enemy of Pakistan”. You know, I had actually spent two months poring over the map of the US and studying American history in preparation. Because I didn’t want to appear “insular”. Then there was having to endure the suspicious stares of every third white man at the various tourist spots in DC. I found the US kids of my age dull, ignorant, insular and downright idiotic. I thought films like American-Pie exaggerated things, but after actually visiting the states….(NOT that I’m a saint….just I feel American kids take such things too far…)
So if I were you, I’d like write like this:
American kids are all confused, dull, wasted lives who do nothing other than vegetate on their computers, or while away their college-years smoking pot and indulging in promiscuity. They don’t care to learn about various cultures or study even their own history. They have no respect for the ideals their country stands for, yet treat all dark-skinned foreigners like they’re doing them a favour by being nice to them. They are racist, and have a pathetically pompous attitude towards the poor. I mean which other country claims to be a superpower and yet chooses to ignore the ruthless manner in which its poor are treated(Now, it would be stupid of you to deny this. The situation of the homeless is pitiable, as far as DC is concerned.) So in short, I would never live in this nation of “multiracial hypocrites”.
But do I think like this? Fortunately for you, No. Because I accept that every society has its flaws which need to be eradicated.
And what I wrote about the US are facts, terrible, but facts nonetheless. And your response is ad hominem, without any actual intention to convey a point, as far as I can see.
Let me just quote what you’ve written,
“that US is a young country and India is old yadda yadda.”
Alright
we are a very young nation, only 6 decades old. Compare us with the US of the 1820s-1830s(60 years after independence.) Compare the condition of women,children,and the human rights scene of the America of the 1820s with that of India in 2009. You will realize that we have achieved a hell lot more than your country in the same timeperiod. Just my 2 paise
This is what I had written.
I said We i.e. India, are a very young nation compared to America.
Inference: You didn’t even read what I wrote. :|.
“India” is a modern concept,more a British concept, which you should be knowing since you claim to be of Indian parentage.
LOL
Forget 2000 years ago, even as late as 1800, there was no “united” India. The whole idea of India took shape only by the late 19th century. To quote Winston Churchill, “India is no more united than the equator is.” The 10,000 year comment was simply expressing my relief that whatever our faults, atleast we don’t commit mass-murder :|
As for things like Indian culture, it’s bulls**t. I say this,despite having been born and brought up in India, and being a Hindu Brahmin. Because our “culture” is not going to provide us food. My parents are absolutely modern, and they don’t bother about my choices or decisions. I never said you’re wrong, I just wanted to imply there are hundreds of millions of “Desis” (I despise this term. I consider it pejorative. I’d much rather be called an Indian.) who lead as good a life in India as in America. I have tremendous faith in the idea of India and am proud of my people, and I’m much happier in India than I could ever be in America.
Yes we are behind the West when it comes to social progress.Like I said, we are a rapidly evolving society with grave problems. They are to be finished, and, hopefully, will be.
I just don’t like it when people make idiotic generalizations like,
“Thus since males are free to oogle and pick their noses and pee in public and to be rude to each other and everyone, ofcourse the only reason a man would think about would be economic. ”
Well I am an Indian. I don’t pee on the roads or ogle at women. Nor am I rude to anyone.
So like I said, it’s tit-for-tat. You made some idiotic sweeping statements which I didn’t like. Now I’m not the sophisticated type who has the patience to correct people like you, so I respond in kind. Your response is typical “Mummy dekho yeh mere desh ko aisa bola” kind.
Anyway, I apologize if I sounded offensive. And this my country Vs. your country debate is meaningless. So I guess it’s best to end it here. Sorry if you think I’d started it.
PS: I’ve started blogging too… :P
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Lazy Thursday for me: Will I regret this post? I’ve a bad feeling..
a major part of my 10-day trip was wasted trying to explain to all those dumb kids that there was more to India than it being “an enemy of Pakistan”.
Hey dude Akshay… didn’t you have better things to do?
What were you doing “arguing with dumb kids”
C’mon man.., the US is a great place.. try to get out and enjoy the surroundings next time. Folks here are actually very warm and welcoming…. if you know how to approach em. They’ll invite you to the weekend BBQ (it’s really grilling, but that is another post), share a beer and talk shop.. but you have to make the effort and put in the time…. mix and mingle.. Hell, you know what…. if you dress well and smell good…. any barfly skank will fuck you too.
I’ve lived here for a decade and half, have traveled and worked in most parts of this country.. including the arm pits of the south and up the butt cracks of the mid west .. you won’t find the kind of racism and discrimination you allude to in 10 days unless you really seek it. There will always be jerks.. but they do that to everyone.. including their own kind.
I’m curious..may I ask, how were you “racially abused”? Were you beaten by a roving band of KKK skin heads or are you pissed off at some random white man who gave you a mean look?
For sure there is racism, but really what are you referring to?
Kids are dumb the world over.. or freaking geniuses.. depending on which ones you meet… They didn’t build this country on the backs of imbeciles… so lighten up.
10 days really??
To know a country or a culture takes time…. you have to stay there a while, eat their food, drink their swill, read their books (and other crap) and sleep with their women (or men).
It takes time.. ask GoriGirl (sorry GG), she’s married to a brown guy and yet remains surprisingly clueless, she’ll often mouth off stuff that’ll knock you flat on your ass, it isn’t her fault though.. we are a bunch of heterogeneous and at time contradicting identities thrown together and well, we all claim to be the “true” Indian.. of course by that definition.. everyone else is somehow lesser or a fake one.
When talking about the old country.. we are really talking about different things while passionately arguing about who is right.. add to it the fact that we assume all generalizations are insults to some imagined ideal of mother India and thus by extension our very existence.. you get a really potent brew.
We feel, we are free (and have the right) to criticize our country/culture.. but if someone else.. especially someone who in our opinion doesn’t pass muster for “Indianess”, well, we get our panties in a bunch and start ranting.
PS: That crap about India being a “young” country.. has been done to death.
Please try narrow down what you mean by country.. eg: Democratic institutions / Culture / Average age of population / yada yada… It sets the context for your rants and prevents others from taking off in different directions.
I need a drink now..
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[comment removed at commentor's request]
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I am an Indian woman living in India. I have visited the US many times (as well as other European countries). I still enjoy living in India far more than I would living in the US or country. Yes, there are problems in India but the satisfaction I feel working here and trying to make a difference is far more than I would ever feel if I lived and worked somewhere else. It is obviously because my emotional connection is with India. I can’t feel passionate about any other country because I don’t have any emotional connection to them.
Second, V, instead of arguing endlessly, accept that you ARE making generalisations about Indians. No one (least of all an Indian living in India) denies that there are problems in our country that needs to be solved. But there are many many wonderful things about this country. As corny as it sounds I still would live in India because the satisfaction of seeing those problems being solved is FAR more than what I would feel to hear that the US has solved the problem of the homeless (or whatever).
Third, please don’t generalise about the women in India in that pseudo pitying tone. We don’t need it, thank you! While there might be many women who think the US is the panacea of all their problems (most realise that its not once they reach there), there are many who love living here for a variety of reasons. Since I am working in the development sector, the opportunities and rewards for me are far more in India than the US.
Fourth, I love Indian food (especially home food). After being forced to eat cold cuts, bread, salad and soups for days, I thank heaven that I have the good fortune to be an Indian having access and the stomach to be able to digest good old Indian food of any variety!
Fifth, India is one beautiful country!! It has mountains, forests, oceans, deserts (u name it we have it). Since I love travelling, India is a paradise for me.
Sixth, your comment about Indians being rude is as silly as Akshay’s comment about dumb American kids or being racially abused. Both of you are making generalisations. As some one said, you get the behaviour you deserve!
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[comment removed at commentor's request]
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What you said IS false, because you are extending your perception of a few households to a billion people.
What else does one make of phrases like “People are rude”?
“Secondly, you have an emotional connection to India, so like ANYONE who has an emotional connection to a place/person/or thing they are going to value it regardless of the faults.”
Why exactly do I detect a patronizing tone here?
Anyway…bye…
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Jhumpa, very well said. The feeling of being involved in a nation’s growth and being part of something bigger than themselves is more important to some than the personal comforts of a welcoming, but foreign place.
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Well this isn’t the appropriate place for a debate…I feel guilty for having started it on some one else’s personal platform, but anyway I didn’t like the original comment, like I said. Having said that, I apologize to the NeoIndian and others and hopefully this will me my last statement on this topic.
Mr.(Ms?) Easily Amused,
C’mon man.., the US is a great place.. try to get out and enjoy the surroundings next time. Folks here are actually very warm and welcoming…
True. I enjoyed my stay in America. The people are nice and they have one quality which is a rarity in India-dignity of labour. But I did feel, they were slightly…er dumb, but that’s not negating the fact that the US is a great place to be. There’s a lot I feel we can learn from them, and likewise.
I just listed my not-so-pleasant experiences to imply that despite them, I had the sense not to make generalizations about America.
Like you said, it takes time to understand a country and its culture.
I was just trying to convey what you did, maybe in a more combative manner. V, you may have relatives in India,you may visit often and you might have seen them experience abuse and oppression. I don’t deny it happens in India, and maybe it is widespread, but certainly there are opportunities for women in India too. My mother is also an educated working woman who also holds a more-than-decent corporate job. My friends have mothers who are doctors, teachers, engineers,etc, etc. I’ll quote Easily Amused here, and say the same “You’ll have to live in India to understand her.” But anyway, your opinions are yours and I never meant any disrespect.
but you have to make the effort and put in the time…. mix and mingle.. Hell, you know what…. if you dress well and smell good…. any barfly skank will fuck you too.
Well I did try to mix and mingle, and I daresay I was quite successful. I made many friends, and am still in touch with a few of them. As for dressing and smelling well, I use Axe Deospray, a Hindustan Lever Product :P. Clothes were mostly formal, and sometimes T-Shirts and Jeans.
Kids are dumb the world over.. or freaking geniuses.. depending on which ones you meet… They didn’t build this country on the backs of imbeciles… so lighten up.
Well this trip I’m talking about happened 4 years back. I was 14 years old then, and I just said what I thought about the people I’d interacted with. They didn’t seem that, let’s say, bright. I mean they didn’t seem to know much about their own country, leave alone mine. Ya, there were sharp people as well, no denying that. But it qualified as a not-so-good experience for me atleast. I have more such anecdotes. I don’t want to describe them because they involve specific individuals and I don’t want complicate stuff by mentioning them. The American Pie thingy was my conclusion about two spoilt filthy- rich Southern Californians, the OC types, whom I’d met.
I’m curious..may I ask, how were you “racially abused”? Were you beaten by a roving band of KKK skin heads or are you pissed off at some random white man who gave you a mean look?
Somewhat the latter. A White fellow in front of me at the Airline counter referred to our group as ” Indian animals making noise” or something to that effect. As I said, I was young, I was 14, I took offence at what he said. If there are degrees of racism, and this was mild, then yes, I’m a wimp :|
The rest of your comment is something I’ve seen and heard so often I have a stock reply ready:
I say what I said to anyone, absolutely anyone, who speaks about my country’s faults without actually bothering to make an effort to correct them. And that anyone could be Indian,Indian-American,European,bla-bla-bla. I do criticize some aspects of my country,but atleast I also “rant” .I say what you call “crap” more often to Indians residing here than to any perceived “foreigners”. Some of the biggest hypocrites live here. They’ll talk about how the Indian Government doesn’t do anything about the Swine-Flu issue and yet those bastards are the same people who spit paan on the roads. The people who complain about “Casteism” and “Communalism” are sometimes the very people who go “Ae Kaale ko Dekh…hehe” when they see an African at the railway station. I have had to “rant” most of the times at my fellow countrymen than at foreigners. Infact, during the very US trip, I had some pretty interesting discussions with a few Americans (elder….most were in the 16-19 bracket. I was one of the youngest people there.) about the problems faced by each and (vague)suggestions to get rid of them. Whereas with Indians, it is only arguments like these. Criticisms and counter-criticisms, mutual accusations of ranting and crapping. You’re right, we all believe we have a divine right to criticize. But we don’t care to change. We’re content living in our comfy houses warming our butts indulging in such useless discussions, instead of actually bothering to change the things we don’t like.. Hence, I rant. And crap.
So basically, your whole hypothesis that Indians don’t like “others” criticizing their faults fails miserably in my case atleast. See, I don’t like people complaining about things they can’t or don’t want to change. If you bothered about India’s social progress, you would try to accelerate it instead of pouncing on me, who merely is someone with a modicum of hope and said something he strongly believes in,
that India is a young nation(Ob, I meant democratic institutions) that has achieved a lot in 6 decades of its existence. There are problems, yes, but they need time to be solved. That’s all. And this is what I was (originally)trying to convey to “V”, and okay, she’s got it she says. You supported her original comment, and I’d have ranted and crapped at you too, just that ranting is a rather exhausting task.
Interesting hypothesis though, yours.
Consider this what you want, a rant, a raving or whatever. Use any kind of profanity you want, it isn’t going to affect me.
PS
And as for those “political misinterpretations” in my actual response , I intended them to be sarcastic and they’re certainly not my views on America. I hope I’ve made that clear. Actually I’d put a “sarcasm” tag there, (a la HTML) but it was an elementary blunder, because the compiler totally ignores tags that it doesn’t recognize….(silly me..)
And that caused so much hullabaloo. Maybe the internet isn’t suited for subtle expressions…
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Ah! you are 18.. why didn’t you say so… no wonder you keep talking about fucking a pie… but homie.. it’s all good.. when I was 18, I was a testosterone reeking sex fiend with a day round hardon. It’s a miracle I survived that age.
It’s the hormone.. it makes one edgy and hyper sensitive… it’s what causes teen angst. It’s a while before one learns to ride the rage and mellow out.. then you’ll begin to enjoy the more relaxed pleasures of life…once the urgency dissipates and one learns how to go the distance…. but you already know that.
When I was 18, India was a very different place.. the girls were skittish and you had to move mountains before you got some, not that it stopped anyone from trying. I hear it different now.. so more power to you.. forget the pie and go get some.
Here’s the secret.. groom well..dress good and smell nice.. don’t skimp.. be consistent and hit on every pretty thing you come across.. and soon you’ll be neck deep in it. Good Luck!
Now for some inane junk:Report from San Francisco:
It’s a nice mellow silicon valley summer evening… warm afternoon that cooled off rapidly as the day ended.. the wife put a salad together (nuts and all, very nice) and I grilled some sardines.
Not everyone here eats sardines.. most folk here call it bait fish, and use it to catch salmon and tuna. The old world (italians/greeks and ofcourse us east Indians) love and eat sardines.. Americans think of it as canned fish, to be eaten in an underground bunker.. in the event of a nuclear attack.
Back in the day, there was a thriving sardine industry out here. Monterey and Carmel’s cannery row was the top landing spot.. pretty soon the folly of treating the ocean like an inexhaustible supply of cheap fish caught on..the sardine population collapsed… it wiped out the canning industry.
The fish is now making a slow comeback. You can pick up fresh sardines at half moon bay.
It’s a very healthy fish to eat.. chock full of omega 3 and no mercury. It’s an oily fish and so grills up great and it’s real easy.
Rub some salt and chillie powder. Stuff the sardine with crushed mint (get the Persian mint from the middle eastern grocery, the Indian grocery sell that junk that taste like grass) and garlic, squeeze some lime/lemon on the fish and throw it on the grill.. it cooks in under 5 mins and tastes awesome.. remember to use fresh fish… frozen one ain’t good.
I eat em with a few glasses of some good German Riesling.. the worst possible thing to pair with.. but that’s the only white I had lying around. And hell, it’s the best time to be drinking wine anyways. The market is flooded with wine and they are practically giving it away.
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?
There are skittish girls everywhere. It’s about looking in the right places and behaving properly.(Not acting like a loser, even if you are one.)
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Another reason I can’t come back – Dungeness crab.
If you haven’t already.. you should. If you live around San Francisco and haven’t supped on this delicacy, you are missing out.
When in season.. you get em for a buck ninety nine a pound. It’s not November yet, but I found some at 2.99 this weekend.
It’s sweet.. delicate.. and oh! so divine… it’s not an easy eat though. You have to work for it. Half the fun is fighting the crab, working through it’s shell and claw to get to that succulent meat, while your mouth is burning in sweet chili and wanting more.
I love dungeness, the shell compared to other crabs (Stone and Red) is softer, the meat sweeter, the crab larger and that much more rewarding.
We make a fiery red curry with garlic and ginger and red chillies in a tomato base. It opens up the pores and make one hyper ventilate. Paired with the right white wine.. acidic and floral.. it is an experience to rival the best french cuisine… at the opposite end of the spectrum.
While fine french cuisine tends to be superbly sublime, creamy and complexly layered, Indian cuisine (non veg) tends to hit you like a freight train. There is nothing subtle about Indian food, for that reason I’ve always paired with the bigger reds and flamboyant fruit forward Californians.
Of late I’ve been experimenting with fish.. and hence the rash of whites… and with it a new appreciation for the cooler..and acidic and floral aromas and tastes. It’s amazing how well they pair with curried fish and shrimp and crab. Thus far, I’ve had the best success with Pinot Grigio.. Chard is a bit too bland and better suited for Italian food and pasta lovers.
As always get your crab live, look for the vigorous feisty ones, they taste the best ;-).
Another reason.. I can’t move back.. Hawaii, but that later.
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Sounds like there’s a Bobby Flay in the house ;)
Wow, your wife is so lucky to have found a man that knows how to cook/grill so well. The way you described those recipes were over the top and now I want some of what you’re having! I’m sure those (non-veggie types) who’ve moved away are salivating now…
I never thought I’d be saying this but I’ll be joining those folks very soon after living in the US for 40 years (and I’m a 2nd generation Indian too).
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See http://www.impactlab.com/2009/10/03/top-ten-con-games/. How about an article on con games in India? Especially, those for which r2i’s should watch out? Please! And, thank you!
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So sorry for posting my earlier comment here. I mean for all to see it and for you to consider addressing it, but now it clearly seems out of context. I started to read more on the ‘oxytocin surge’ that was mentioned in one of the comments and it led me to the interesting link I cited, and that, in turn, led me to think of cons in India. Of course, you are free to delete this whole thing!
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